Common Good Podcast

Kate Hanisian: Microcosm of Healing

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The Common Good podcast is a conversation about the significance of place, eliminating economic isolation and the structure of belonging. In this episode, Joey Taylor and Sam Pressler speak with Kate Hanisian.

Kate Hanisian is a strategist and social change advocate that is deeply driven by the question: How might we design a more connected, sustainable, and inclusive world? She co-founded Design Impact, a non-profit social innovation firm in 2009, building a small idea into a successful nonprofit that addresses complex social challenges through the lenses of innovation, equity, and leadership. She now serves as the Chief Strategy and Innovation Officer within the YMCA of Greater Cincinnati and is also the lead facilitator of the YMCA North American Network, where she works with the leaders of the largest YMCAs in the US, Mexico, and Canada.

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This episode was produced by Joey Taylor and the music is from Jeff Gorman. You can find more information about the Common Good Collective here. Common Good Podcast is a production of Bespoken Live & Common Change. 

Kate: So you asked me why I decided to move on from design impact and join the YMCA. There's a lot of reasons really. I think that as I got deeper and deeper into doing systemic racism work, work around systemic inequity, I came across a lot of realizations within myself about how I was not proximate to folks that really thought much different than me. So while we were on the leading edge of in social innovation in many ways and pushing institutions to become more inclusive, to become more aware of inequity and how it manifests with inside themselves, with inside their institutions, I think at the same time when I saw what happened in our elections and where 50 percent of our country voted, I realized that I was really out of touch with over half the voting population. And that said something to me about my ability to create small drop in the ocean of people trying to create waves towards love in what we do in the world so that was part of the reason I joined the Y, because the Y is one of the few places in Cincinnati and often in many cities where you can bump into people across socioeconomic lines, across political lines, across age lines, across All sorts of demographic lines and it's not just in the grocery store, but there's these points of connection that are happening now. They might be around a Zumba class, but to me, it's this awesome I don't want to call it laboratory because people aren't meant to be in laboratories, but I just think it's this awesome opportunity because people are coming together across difference already. And we know that. the hardest part sometimes is getting people to the table, right? Getting people to show up is one of the hardest things. And so having a place where they're already showing up, a network that's already built across the entire country and the mission of the organization to build transformation around the intersection of mind, body, and spirit for all struck me as one that was timeless. And there is an element of joy at the YMCA that I think is crucial to belonging work, to bridge building work, to where we all thrive as humans, that I saw missing in a lot of the non profit, systems work I'd been doing, whether that be with school systems or hospitals or people working on food insecurity or people working on getting folks homes. The level of joy was missing in the work and the YMCA is, a place, there's a lot of joy. And so I needed that. And I also think we all need that so those are some of the reasons I chose the Y, 

Sam: I came up in the Y, my grandparents were the founding members of the YMHA in the town I grew up in. Oh wow. And then I spent so much time on the basketball court there that they gave me the keys and started paying me to open and close. So my first job was at the YMCA. That's so funny. And it transitioned from the YMHA to YMCA while I worked there. So I saw that transition, the Y holds a really special place in my life. And I think because of that, I see both, the incredible civic potential of the Y and also it's Limitations, you came into this role with an innovation angle. Particularly in Cincinnati, but also thinking of it's like national footprint that you were speaking to, where do you see it's civic potential in the 21st century? 

Kate: First of all, thanks for sharing your why story. It's crazy people, strangers, a lot of people have a why story that is important. Maybe I'll start there in that the civic potential sometimes isn't something as simple as it was a place to play basketball. I think sometimes we overthink these things. We all need physical spaces that we can feel safe and we can have an environment of whether we're developing our mind, our body, or our spirit. When I think about where we are as a world, I have to recognize my own bias as someone that has had the opportunity and the privilege to have lots of education. And there are certain values and skill sets or whatever that we tout a lot of inclusivity, but end up being in very similar levels of education, race, class, et cetera. The why is, Very much an institution that I think about 40 percent of our members right now are on some sort of scholarship. If not complete scholarship. So again, this is about me getting back to where are places where it's not just people that think like me, even if those people think about inclusion all the time. And so when I think about civic potential, I think about rooting myself in a place that isn't necessarily fancy or isn't necessarily fancy. on one side or the other politically, although I definitely have my own personal opinions. Like that's hard for me. That's a point of tension for me with the YMCA. A big point of tension, but it's important that we're wrestling with that.

Sam: I had always viewed the Y as one of the more cross class institutions in American life but then last year I ended up going down this research rabbit hole of talking to a lot of local Y leaders across the country and actually learn, that in most places it's still not fully kind of representative of the socioeconomic spectrum. It does tend to skew kind of middle class and upper middle class. So I am curious, it sounds like the Cincinnati Y is kind of a real space of cross class inclusion. And I guess if that's true, I'm wondering what you all have done as an institution to enable that cross class space to happen when so many others seem to struggle with that challenge.

Kate: I think we do a good job. I do not think we have it on lock in Cincinnati. I do not think we necessarily have that figured out. There's a lot of historical reasons why the Y serves the group of people that it serves. I would say in general, it does not tend to serve the poorest of the poor with all of its programs. Although we have a food kitchen so there are some programs and it also tends not to serve the wealthiest population. So I see it as that big middle ish bubble but I don't think we have that figured out. And I think it's rooted in economic structures that put profit over people and that's built into our history. The YMCA is an old institution, but it was started as a volunteer institution. So, I mean, it sounds like you know why history, which is really cool. You probably know better than I do, but this building I'm in was built in 1917. We didn't have a full time staff member. We were serving thousands of young men at the time, and there wasn't a full time staff member until the 1930s. So it was not an institution that was built on necessarily Wealth generation as a model. And that sort of changed throughout time, right? We've changed in some of our business model practices. But the reason I think we're at an incredible point now is because that growth has stagnated and the why as an important choice to make. It turned in from a completely volunteer led organization and it's early days for quite some time to a 9 billion industry. And it lost it some of itself, not all itself, but it lost some of itself in that process. And so I do see the why is that a bit of a precipice when we think about what is next and where we're going to go. And I think part of that is talking about who we serve, why we serve them and how money plays a role in our decision making and in all institutions. But I appreciate The question. So no, I don't think we have it figured out, but I think I would like to be a person asking that question inside this institution daily and pushing that question, which I am and I'm feeling half the time. But, to be fair, I don't think there's any one institution or community or way of working that has the answer to these questions that we're asking and the why is it isn't just another imperfect opportunity 

Sam: do you know that the why was actually formed as a cooperative. 

Kate: No, but that doesn't surprise me. That does not surprise me. I love that for us. I love that for us. Thank you for teaching me that Sam. 

Sam: So it's, there's something so interesting about like the wise trajectory where it is this cooperative initially formed in the UK focused, a very small scale cooperative focused on the moral formation of young men, as this kind of. point in mass transition around industrialization happened. And then there's a way in which like the why has mirrored American life at every stage in particular. Yes. So it went from a cooperative to then more of a kind of progressive era voluntary organization, much like the Rotary Clubs and all that.

Kate: Yeah, 

Sam: and then it went from that to basically an arm of the US military's war effort and the Patriots and flyers and then post war it made that shift right of mirroring the corporatization of all these nonprofits and kind of lost its view of moral formation and it lost its view of cooperatism and became trying to compete with the fitness center craze of the 70s This leads us to like, where is the why now when in some ways that neoliberal view that it tried to mirror is kind of coming undone. The why at the same time is asking, like, what is the why after neoliberalism? 

Kate: Yeah. Wow. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. So I think of myself as a bit naive sometimes, a lot of the time. And sometimes I think that's a strength. And then I often realize in my dark moments that it's a weakness. So what I'm about to say might sound naive, but, I think the y and I can't speak for the YMCA, like we're obviously on a podcast that's gonna be distributed. I, I am, a singular person that works at the YMCA, so I'm not the voice of a very complex, very large institution. But, I think that the YMCA has an opportunity in front of it that no other institution does, and I think that it is not unified right now in terms of what to do with that opportunity but I think that there are many of us who have clarity around what the opportunity might be if we move in this direction back to a form of what, I wouldn't, I don't want to say going back to what was because it was problematic and it had its weaknesses. Now, the question is, and I think about this question a lot. This is this innovation question, which is like, can we actually change institutions? Can institutions themselves heal? Can systems heal? Or is just even the idea of a system, the problem in the first place, the idea of a system is just a reflection of our own human illness. Or, is every institution just like a person? We have a shadow side, and it's got its shadow sides, and if we learn to deal with them, if we work to reconcile them, if we do that internal work, simply when I think about fractals, right, things that are true at the micro level, also can be very true at the macro level. If we work on ourselves, we never fully get rid of these parts of ourselves that limit us, that hurt others, whatever. But the more we can become aware of them, the better we can be, right? So I don't know the answer to that question. What I like about the Y is that it's a system that held on to a lot of its community. It's very location based. It is not very top down, which is why it has a hard time changing as a whole. So every why is really different. You've got horse camps, you've got senior centers, it's like a hodgepodge of stuff, man. You might hear about the swim and gym, but we have 20 different strategies, lines of business. I mean, it's just childcare and food pantries and housing and camps So it's hard for the entire institution to agree and to change but I am naive in my thinking, maybe in that it can, it can. Maybe I think just like history works, time and space and timing is in history or magic. The why is not separate from what we're looking at as a country. The why is not separate from it is a microcosm of those things. And right now, as I'm saying this, I'm putting this together. The country is at this precipice too, right? And so I don't know. I don't believe the why is the answer. I believe that it is a place right now in my life that I'd like to try to learn what change is. Might look like Knowing that I don't know yet what the way is in my life and maybe and I'll never know right till the day I die. 

Joey: So you said you don't know if systems, if institutions can heal. Obviously you kind of think they can though, because, 

Kate: well, it's a question I've been thinking about. 

Joey: Yeah. I think I would like to hear you talk just a little bit about why are you tipping towards the yes in that question and what are you doing particularly using your own kind of unique geniuses, Kate, to try to bring that healing into the Y. 

Kate: At the core of it, maybe it's that same thing I was saying about fractals or micro to macro, systems are made up of humans and humans are messy, and I guess if I believe that I can heal or small groups can heal, like at what point do we believe nothing can heal? Is it when it becomes what? What is it? What are the things that make healing impossible? Do I think structures would have to change? Absolutely. Do I think the way we think about money would have to change? Absolutely. Do I think, et cetera, a lot of things would have to change. And healing is an ongoing process. There isn't a day we wake up and we're fully healed, I believe. I think the reason I choose it is because there's so many lives that keep coming here and we recently did some research with Children's Hospital, which is the largest children's hospital in the country. It's the number one children's hospital in the country. It's an incredible research institution. And we did some research around belonging, as defined by our community, by our members. And I was convinced we were going to come back with some results that didn't shake out across race or economic lines that maybe our white members felt a greater sense of belonging or our middle class wealth and there was no discrepancy. It blew my mind because I had been like, Oh, I'm going to use this data to tell everybody that we're so screwed up, but, I think it was 86 percent of folks replied that they feel the Y is a safe place to be their authentic self. You've got how many millions people are participating in that. That's something worth paying attention to, so do, I think institutions can heal. What am I doing? A lot of things. I am working a lot, not just on this idea of belonging, but also this idea of bridge building across difference, which it's a Venn diagram. They're overlapping, but they're not necessarily one in the same. So I spent a lot of my time thinking about the intersection of DEI, which I spent a lot of time working on and bridge voting and belonging and where those overlap and where they're problematic and where they argue with one another and how to think about those within an institution. We are working right now to Train a thousand volunteers, which we have a strong volunteer program, in bridging bridge building and belonging, and they're going to be starting small groups based on interests. So whether that's a biking club or a whitewater rafting club or a Spanish group, or Whatever. But the goal of those groups is to bring people together across difference, and to actually have them have a deeper relationship or sense of belonging with one another. But we are starting with that idea that they have a common interest, so they all want to learn Spanish. Great. Are the people in that group coming together across race? Are they coming together across class? Do you as a small group leader, know how to facilitate that moment? Do you know how to hold that space? The Y then becomes the place that can hold that space. We're not there yet. The Cincinnati Y is not there yet as an institution. That is very difficult work. I actually think though that we need those places in society. the Y could be a really interesting place to hold space for that. We have a long way to go to get there. I don't think that's a simple thing, but those are some of the conversations I'm having.

Joey: Early on in this podcast, especially through the involvement of John McKnight, we would talk a lot about how systems and institutions themselves were the problem. And what we need more of is associations. And so he would make that dichotomy, now of course it's not that clean. And one thing that you're highlighting with this example that you gave is that you're using an institution to convene associations, right? 

Kate: Uh, yeah, thank you for saying that. So succinctly, yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way before. And that's really powerful. 

In any moment on any given day, I can measure my wellness by this question. Is my attention on loving or is my attention on who isn't loving me? And I think that could even be, is my intention on love? Or is my intention on where love isn't and that is, for me, a reminder that means something to me when I come home to myself and ask about my own wellness. Is how much of my day have I spent on loving? In any moment on any given day, I can measure my wellness by this question. Is my attention on loving or is my attention on who isn't loving me? 

Sam: I have a lot of like imaginations around the Y. 

Kate: Mm hmm. 

Sam: I was reading something that you wrote or you did an interview in advance for this and you mentioned moving the why away from a transaction. I'm genuinely curious what does it look like as you're envisioning this talking about the work of creating a place of belonging and connection? Like, How do you see the potential of the Y moving or returning to a place of real membership? And I say like membership in the kind of like Wendell Berrion terms of like truly being a member, being a part of. What does it look like to kind of take the Y in that direction?

Kate: part of the reason I'm here also in greater Cincinnati is because of the vision of Jorge Perez, who is our CEO, so we have our mission that all Y's share, but then we have our vision, which is really around Building joyful, and inclusive environments where individuals reach goals, make friends, and connect to a cause greater than themselves, which is really, we define that as achievement, relationship, and belonging. And so that idea of what is belonging and how are we doing it is a huge part of my work. So, recently that was part of the work with Children's Hospital is having the community themselves define what that meant. So there was five different definitions. So I think part of truly being a member is defining for yourself the balance of the belonging mean to you, what that means. And I think that we are starting by listening. So again, that process was not, here's what we think belonging is and now we're going to measure it. It's what do you think belonging is and how do we build towards that? So I think that in its Base form is a way that we're doing that. Also, one of the things that Jorge has consistently prioritized is growing our volunteer program, and he gets a lot of pushback for this because if you look at volunteerism across the United States, it's on the decline, people are busy. They don't want to volunteer. Actually, the meeting I was just in, we had this big conversation about, is the word volunteering the problem? Does it need to be rebranded or the rethought of that like this idea of volunteer instead of it's like I'm just a community member like Sam, I love what you said at the beginning of this call about how at the YMCA, you just started coming so often they gave you the key so we have a ton of those people at our branches, gardeners they people just come they start taking care of the gardens they stay they hang out in the lobby we have a a cop that on his off time hangs out in the lobby just to talk to teens and nobody said, do you want to sign up for our formal volunteer program where you talk to teenagers? Right? That is belonging. That is somebody choosing. So where are there spaces of intrinsic desire that people are coming because they feel so moved? And the more we can create environments or moments Where that is happening, to me, that intrinsic, letting people lead themselves to where they feel belonging, essentially, is what we're trying to do more of. What's hard for me is that it's happening accidentally all the time with the Y. So there's people in the Y that are like, We need to stop trying to formalize it. Formalizing it's the problem. It's happening accidentally everywhere within the Y movement. People are feeling the sense of belonging. People are coming together. And then there's other people that are like, no, we need to be more intentional about this, more clear about this. So sometimes you kill something because you over program it, right? You're over intentional So there is this little dance that we're doing around this magic sauce that people feel at the Y, 

Sam: there's something I'm holding here, which is your response, which is where are people going, and how do we Build around that in some ways. I also think of membership and maybe Putting that maybe encounter to a transaction as things being asked of you Not just me asking things of the place Ah, 

Kate: like I have a sense of responsibility and 

Sam: so I and but you're saying that a little bit with the volunteering piece, right? But i'm curious how does the Y ask of its members? How does the Y beyond, hey, donate to support this expansion, actually make people in general a sense of commitment or responsibility to the institution as well? 

Kate: I think we're doing it. I think we could do it better. But A through tons of volunteer opportunities. The numbers are consistently growing in our number of volunteers. So giving people opportunities to show up and then every one of our wise, which is rooted in neighborhood and rooted in the place it, but they each have their own Facebook page per neighborhood and they all have their own way. They all have their own board of people that make decisions for that which is a nightmare strategically within a system. If you were trying to design the most efficient system, you would not give every single little branch it's own board of directors, but that's what we have. And so those are all people working in volunteer ways to say, I care about the future of this little place or this big place I think those are some of the ways that we're giving people those opportunities I mean, did anybody come to you, maybe they did Sam and say, Hey, Sam, I want you to start cleaning this up. I would say if that did happen, you were already filling in and you were already showing up intrinsically. There was just an interaction. It wasn't like oh, I have a strategy to have. I mean, yeah, like, right. And do what People work at the y it's sort of part of the air we breathe, right? Like they come to members and members come to them and say, how can I help pitch out? Or, hey, so-and-so wipes down the equipment every time when he is done because he just know he likes to do that. So now we're gonna ask it. So it's in these little interactions that it's happening all the time. Coming back to your experience, I'm curious, can I ask you a question? I love that you know so much about the why. I've never met anyone that doesn't work at the why that knows so much about the why. And so I'm curious about your curiosity and thinking about it.

Sam: appreciate the question. I like when the tables turned. So yeah, formative for me, if I wasn't in school and I wasn't at home, I was at the Y, right? So in a genuine third place sense, it was the place that I spent my entire childhood. Speaking to your point earlier on the informality of the asks, I was offered the job cause I was there in the morning before school. And then I was there after school and then basically this guy was like, okay, I don't need to convince anyone to show up and he'll mop the court before he shoots. And then he'll clean the court when it's done. I could count on him to do that. And I became a Special Olympics coach 'cause there was a guy who would hang out. Happened and he brought me into the Special Olympics and I started coaching Special Olympics basketball and volleyball. And that all happened because like the Y was just like a civic platform for that. So that is where I've seen in my own life the very powerful civic potential. I think there's something that gets me really energized about the Y's very strategic positioning, which is at a moment in time where we are talking about a dearth of civic opportunity, particularly civic opportunity to engage and build relationships across class. You have an institution that basically anywhere you are in the United States, you're within an hour of the Y. 

Kate: Exactly. And 

Sam: basically a value of real estate that could not be accumulated at this moment in time just because of its history. Somebody has 

Kate: that number. Yeah. Yeah. 

Sam: Yeah. Like real physical assets. And I think with that strategic positioning, you start to imagine all of its potential and the room that it has to continue to realize that, because no organization can get to the strategic position that the Y has as an organization. That's the thing that gets me so excited around it is, is just because of its history. How it is so potentially distinctly situated to take on this moment and how do you get from where it is to kind of it's true potential.

Kate: Yes. Thank you for explaining that. And I like how you called it an opportunity. I agree with you. And I also feel like a responsibility. And because of all of that, what you've identified as forms of power, really, that the institution has and has acquired, and in some cases in unethical ways, what is the responsibility back to society? And I think that's kind of what we're talking about to some degree. 

Joey: You said that some of you all in the leadership of the Y have some clarity on what the why should or could be, to use a design impact phrase. What is the pathway to the future for the why

Kate: I have the clarity around what it should or could be. And I think there's some of us that do. Also, about a third of my work is with an institution called YNAN. So it's the YMCA North American Network. That's the 70 largest Ys in the Canada, US, and Mexico. And my job is to help facilitate some conversations with that those CEOs in that group. And so when I speak, I'm not just speaking from a perspective of handling interactions in Cincinnati, but also having a lot of conversations and interactions with the 70 largest YMCA's in our continent, I would say that there is not alignment. So the vision that some of us have towards the pathway to the future is not clear at the international or continental level, which is where my grief comes from and my impatience lies and my skepticism goes and, I also know, you know, like would Martin Luther King, for example, have been able to do what he did if all the pieces of the moment hadn't come together. I think of the why is like that. I think that you know, we're missing right now, the catalyst that's going to shake us right into the direction that I see. I could tell you all my strategic ideas for the pathway to the future. I could tell you if we just did this, and then I think we do that, and then we do that, and then we'll get there. And I have a lot of reasoning to think those things are, those are not rooted in ignorance or an experience or rooted in lots of things. And also I could be totally wrong, and this idea of emergence, like, I don't know, I'm working towards that. And I can tell you what the ways we're working towards that. And also, I don't know exactly if and when and how the Y is going to do that. Like, it's not a big turn. Honestly, it's built into our mission. It's built into our history. It's built into the magic sauce that is already happening at the Ys. We just haven't claimed it and said, this is who we are for real, real. And I don't even think we're far from it, but we're not aligned at the leadership level. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that a lot of which are rooted in capitalism and forms of power.

Sam: I'm so struck by like how the why that's needed in this moment is essentially a version two of where the Y started, which is one that recommits to cooperativeism and more like view of the moral future rather than a kind of, right. And it doesn't need to just be for bed. Although I do think there's a role for spaces for completely disconnected men, but it does strike me that like, wait, the moment that the Y started in, which was immense change in society in terms of economic dislocation, in terms of geographic dislocation, social dislocation, and the view that we have a set of people who are detached and disconnected from kind of the relationships and the responsibilities that imbue our lives with meaning. Let's build something that starts to meet that and provides a kind of pro social outlet for that. That's kind of the moment that we're in right now. It is. 

Kate: Yeah, as I was just about to say, is that it's exactly that's the moment that we're in right now. We're a reflection of this country right now. And I was going to say this earlier and I think I got sidetracked, but that's where I struggle with innovation is like, man, it's a lot easier instead of changing a taxi company to start an Uber. And that's why I'm fascinated and jealous at times of people working outside of systems, often like some of the work that you talk about and the work that Peter talks about and all of the folks that you tend to interview, right? Is that we're working on starting these sparks outside of systems because the arduous nature of trying to change this existing thing is, is too complex, but could we start at a smaller level and grow from there? And that's, that to me is the existential question of where I place my time every day when I wake up. Is it possible even to look at an institution like this versus should I be operating outside? That's my question. I don't have it answered. I feel like there's going to be times in my life when I work on different elements of that. And right now I'm in this particular place in time.

Joey: So, you asked all these folks in this partnership with children's what belonging meant to them.

Kate: Yeah. 

Joey: Um, What does belonging mean to you? 

Kate: I struggle with definitions because they pin us down so hard. And I feel more complex than that around a question like that. Um, belonging means I feel safe enough to be like my inner child. I can be just me. messy or silly or sad. I have a five and a seven year old. And so belonging means a place that I can be that free. There's a sense of freedom to me in it. And it means that the love I give is also rooted in freedom in those spaces and not rooted in scarcity or rooted in need to own. So who I become in those spaces because of the environment itself conjures the best of me, the least scared, the most brave.

Joey: That's incredible. How are you feeling right now? 

Kate: Oh, I'm feeling hopeful, sentimental, vulnerable. How are you feeling right now? 

Joey: I'm feeling good. I mean, you mentioned, you mentioned a five year old and I'm just like, Oh my gosh,

Kate: my five year old has started freestyle rapping. He can't rap and he's like doing it. Parties, you know, he's like, I'm about to show you my rap and I'm just like, wow, you know, wow. What does it look like to belong to myself that much?

Joey: Hell yeah. Yea